Katja Iversen:
Some people say they are getting fatigued with the discussion about gender equality. You can be fatigued if you worked for 20 years nonstop on changing something, but you can not be fatigued if you just had to listen to something for a couple years.
Sam:
Welcome to the Women On The Move podcast from JPMorgan Chase, I'm Sam Saperstein. Women On The Move is a global initiative designed to empower female employees, clients and consumers to build their careers, grow their businesses and improve their financial health. Each episode will feature successful and inspiring women who are breaking the mold. They're sharing their career journeys and leadership lessons, talking about their professional and personal goals and making a difference in the lives of others.
Sam:
This season, I'm taking you to the world economic forum in Davos, Switzerland, where I caught up with many of the women who inspire me every day. Today's guest travels the world advocating on behalf of women. Katja Iversen joined Women Deliver in 2014 and is leading the organization's fight for gender equality around the world. Katja is a prolific thought leader on women's rights in the global economy, politics and culture. She's also an advocate for democratizing the feminist movement, giving a voice to underrepresented communities. It was an honor to speak with Katja about how she advises leaders and communities to rethink gender equality.
Sam:
So Katja, thank you so much for being with us here on our Women On The Move podcast. It's great to see you here in Davos.
Katja Iversen
It's great to be. And what a great studio you have.
Sam:
Yes, we are here in the equality lounge with The Female Quotient. So among many people, men and women which is great.
Katja Iversen
And the perfect place to be for this podcast.
Sam:
Talk to us about how you got two women deliver and what your career journey has been like.
Katja IversenSo yes, Women Deliver is an advocacy organization. We work to push gender equality and women's health and rights and drive investment to that. And my route there has been a little unorthodox.
Sam:
Tell us.
Katja Iversen
I think I have done many, many different things, but it all started when my grandmother, she was born in 1915 very poor and she was one of those extraordinary smart women who never got a chance. Didn't get an education, worked to take care of her family. Her smaller sisters and brothers were sent out to serve at the age of eight so she could make money for the family.
Katja IversenAnd when her brother had to go to school because he was a boy, she was sent out to take care of him. So she worked, met my granddad, then they could see that they needed to break the poverty cycle and she knew that she could not get pregnant because then he would never get his education. So she never got an education. She became a stay at home mum, which of course I'm happy because I wouldn't have been here. But her biggest dream was to get that education. So that became her dream for me. So she saved my life when I was born. I was born too early. She gave me a computer the day I graduated. She didn't know what it was. And on her death bed. She told me to go and do good for girls and women because the world needed that.
Sam:
Wow. What an influence on your life, a special person.
Katja Iversen
So her, Pippi Longstocking and Nelson Mandela are my role models.
Sam:
Your role models. I can understand Nelson Mandela for sure. How has Pippi Longstocking play into this.
Katja Iversen
Oh, Pippi Longstocking she's the strongest girl in the world and she says two wonderful things. She says, "I've never tried that. I'm sure I can". And she said, "If you are strong, you have to be good". And that means when we have privilege, when we are rich, when we're strong, when we're capable, we have to be good and make sure that that also benefits others.
Sam:
Using it for the right reasons to benefit everyone. So tell us about your focus areas for Women Deliver. What are the special areas that you particularly work on?
Katja Iversen:
So Women Deliver works on gender equality at large but we come from a background on health. Women Deliver, it started as a health, but we say women deliver and we deliver everything, not only babies.
Katja Iversen
So we always look at it through that gender lens. We look at development, so what we have done is we use evidence. We use solutions to go and nudge the big and powerful to make change happen and in agenda quality space, whether it's in the workplace or at home or at school or in the health system, there we really come with what is it that we know works, what needs to be done and the data that can sustain that.
Katja Iversen
Ten years ago we had hardly any cost benefit analysis that showed it paid to invest in girls and women. We want [inaudible] . We work with the McKinsey, we worked with KPMG, we work with the World Bank to really also, apart from the moral argument about fairness and equality, also have that economic evidence that shows that if we had a gender equal work place, things would be better.
Katja Iversen
If we had that gender equal workplace across the globe, we could add up to 26% to global GDP and really prove that that gender equal world is healthier, wealthier, more productive, and more peaceful. So now we can show it and we can also show how to get there. And that's where we do the power scans and see who is it that has influence where and how can we influence them, which is also one of the reasons why I'm in Dallas.
Sam:
So tell me about that power scan. What are you looking for and what do you hope to find in terms of people or organizations?
Katja Iversen
The standard would say that it's the prime minister and the president and the minister of finance who have some power-
Sam:
In some countries.
Katja Iversen
In some countries. And it's the CEOs and it's the people at the top. Sp we work with countries, we work with companies, we work with organizations, but we also kind of look at it and say, okay, but who influenced them? Well you have the media, yes, but you, for example, also in a government context have auditors all in the private sector. And they hold the powerful to account. So if we can work with auditors of getting a gender lend to auditing, which we for example, have done. Then we can push the powerful in another way.
Sam:
That is great. So is that a new avenue that others haven't really pursued before?
Katja Iversen
Yeah, and we're inviting people, the oldest Islamic, we love it and people are seeing, well that's a good way of doing it. So we do that very concretely. So I'm an advisor on to a good number of global companies around the world and to governments. And I've been on the first G7 General Equality Council with Prime Minister Trudeau.
Katja Iversen
I've been on lacrosse, I'm working with the UN leaders and we're working... We're doing that, so we're pushing the documents, we're pushing the wording, we're pushing the money and every time we do it, we do it from a collaborative sense. We don't shout, we don't shame, but we come and say, "Come on, we can do better and here's what we can do" and-
Sam:
And working from within the [crosstalk 00:00:07:26].
Katja Iversen
And we work together and we understand and we do it even though partnership can be hard. So we work with 3000 civil society organizations. We work with the companies. We work with the government and then we convene so we can say, well, this is not just one sector that can fix this. If we talk about gender equality, if we're talk about equal pay, if we talk about women in leadership, it's not just one entity that can fix that. We need to work together.
Sam:
How has the economic argument helped you to advance the cause? I hate to think that that's what it took to push things forward, but the way you use it and the way you actually state those facts. What role did that play in pushing you even further?
Katja Iversen:
We know and can prove now that when we invest in girls and women, when we invest in gender equality, there's a ripple effect that benefits not only the individual but the family, the community, the business and the culture. That's taken a while to get there.
Katja Iversen
We show back in the 2000s. That when we came with moral arguments of fairness, arguments of human rights, we didn't get really far. We didn't get into the power rooms because everybody have the rights to everything. And if you're the CFO and the CEO or you're the minister of finance, you have so many demands that you also have to look at the return of investment. Is my money used best there or is my money used best there, is my money best there. So we show that they smile a little and then they said, "Let's go on onto business". So framing, gender equality and women's participation in women's leadership, et cetera. Also, as part of core business was key and having the arguments that could sustain that. So that has gotten us far. Sometimes when we think things go too slow, we have to take a step back and just look at it over perspective.
Katja Iversen
And there I have my grandmother as a yardstick. But I also have the data that shows the trajectories. What I see today is that there's a push back on the investment case.
Sam:
In what way?
Katja Iversen
I think we still need it but there's more among some front runners, the fan-ness is getting back. So, I've had some wonderful discussions here in Davos with senior leadership and CEOs that say, "I'm not hiring a woman because it's good for business. I'm hiring a woman because it's the right thing and it's good thing for business. I'm not seeing her as a female lead, I'm just seeing a leader". And that's where we want to get to but sometimes you need the steps, whether it's transitional or quotas of the investment case to get to the new normal. We're not the new normal yet. And I'm a little worried because we're seeing tremendous pushback on both women's rights to own their own bodies, but also in some countries, women's place in the work place.
Katja Iversen
And that's also an encouragement that we have to really keep on the agenda. We're hearing some people say they are getting fatigued with the discussion about gender equality and I have that. You can be fatigued if you'd accept that it takes 257 years to get economic parity. If you accept that you can be fatigued if you worked for 20 years nonstop on changing something. But you cannot be fatigued if you just had to listen to something for a couple of years.
Sam:
Very fair. That's very true. We have to move beyond that. So 2020 is going to be a big year for discussion around gender equality topics. One reason is it's the 25th anniversary of the Beijing platform for action. And at the time that was done, that was considered to be the most advanced roadmap for advancing women. And you've called for some big bold, accountable commitments and action on the part of organizations and governments. So how do we capitalize on this? What big bold moment are you looking for from this year?
Katja Iversen
There's going to be moments, but there's more importantly going to be action. And it's not just a year, it's merely the beginning. If we look at where the world was 25 years ago, we've seen progress on some accounts but we also seen regress and we're in that. We're at that tipping point and it can tip one way or the other and we want to tip at the other. So we want to see that government goes beyond the words. That companies actually put action behind the commitments and investments. We have a lot of talking lines. Now we need the budget lines.
Sam:
So you have to see the dollars there-
Katja Iversen
We need to see both the dollars, but also the real eagerness. It's not something you can just pay off. You also have to do it. But I'm incredibly optimistic because what we're seeing forming now, it's going to be a super year. It's going to be great events in Mexico, in Paris, in New York, in hundreds of countries across the globe. There's going to be activities that really shines that light built in the Women Deliver conference that we had last year with 8,000 people. If we as an NDO can gather 8,000, imagine what this can do. And we've heard some of the discussions in Davos and around about, it's going to be a joint collaboration between civil society, governments and business. And when we put our heads together and go beyond those talking points and really put transformative action.
Katja Iversen
Do we need to reinvent some of the international systems to do this right? Imagine this image of that 15 year old girl, we're doing it for all of us, but we're doing it for her.
Sam:
Her future.
Katja Iversen
In 10 years when the sustainable development goals, which is a lot of the frame where gender equality is both a separate goal number five, but it is also a cross cutting. You can't talk about education without talking about gender. You can't talk about economic growth without talking about gender. You can't talk about the environment and climate change without talking about the woman who are on the front line and living it here and now. So we really have a great opportunity. We can not waste it. So when I ask for bold action, I say go beyond what you've said, do it and do it longterm.
Katja Iversen
So the action coalitions that we're going to see being established, that'll go for the next 10 years. We want that 15 year old girl be able to live all the goals, be able to live her full potential in 10 years and we can do it.
Sam:
And when you say action, what are you looking for people to do? And I say people, I mean individuals or governments. What aspects of either laws do you want to change or some other elements of society?
Katja Iversen
So I have a power tool. This is the gender lens. So I have this-
Sam:
We're looking at a magnifying glass.
Katja Iversen
A magnifying glass, and I want everybody, we want everybody, whether as individuals to look at our own lives, both of the biases we have and how do we bring up our boys. How do we bring out our girls. What do we tell them. What do we teach them. What do we give them. Are they equal, are they fair. But also how are we in the workplace. What are we doing. And that's systemic and individual. Economic and political. So if we look at the political system, we want to ditch the discriminatory laws that's still on the books. We want to push the progression ones and they'll be in the G7, we've found the 80 inspirational laws that governments can look to. But we also want the investments in women's organizations and in this whole implementation.
Katja Iversen
And finally measure what you treasure. If you don't measure this and that's at company level, whether we are talking about women and leadership that you work so much and so wonderfully with. But if we do not measure it, invest in it, tie bonuses and all of that to that. We're not going to show we're serious about it and we're not going to see the results.
Sam:
So what can companies do around the world to also take very specific action?
Katja Iversen
Very concretely, use the gender lens and make agenda analysis of your business. And that's not just if you're a big company like JPMorgan. That's also the small and the medium and all the ones who haven't cared about this yet. A agenda analysis. It doesn't have to be difficult as the global compact that has good principles and lots of stuff-
Sam:
So there's lots of stuff out there you can use.
Katja Iversen
Out there. Do the bias identification and bias training that can really hone in where you're actually going wrong and then look at the very concrete element. Equal pay, leadership, work environment anti-harassment. It's very concrete. What we have done in Women Deliver, we had a big campaign started three years ago, it's called Deliver For Good Deliver For Girls And Women and that has now gathered more than 500 civil society organization from across the globe, from across all sectors. From water, from money, from education, from health and everybody takes their logos and the egos off and focus on her.
Katja Iversen
Now we've created a business ally network where we have companies who want to not only do the right thing, but also showcase how they do it and help others do it. So that business ally network and then get involved in the generation equality because this takes everybody.
Sam:
Do you use that information on the companies and what people are doing to share best practices and help educate others who are interested but haven't just gotten there yet?
Katja Iversen
Yeah.
Sam:
What's effective? What do you see out there that you think more companies should be adopting?
Katja IversenIf we talk about equal pay, for example. Transparency is a very powerful tool. So the equal pay audits, because many companies say, and I've been in some discussions here, they'll say, "Oh, we have in the same job, people get the same, same salary".
Katja Iversen
That's not equal. That's equal playing that job. But if you only have women in the so-called women's job and lower bracket jobs, of course you don't have pay equity. You also have to look at the different levels. So you have to have that transparency and you have to dare that as a company. As somebody said yesterday, "We know who to go for if we don't reach the economic goals, we know who to go for and go and strangle if our customers are not happy. But we never go for the ones who don't feel the goals in regard to gender".
Sam:
So we talk about making the gender and inclusion agenda work for all. So work for all classes of society too. And you've talked about democratizing feminism. So it's not just there for affluent women. How should these efforts really think about that, the class piece of that to make sure it's working for everybody?
Katja Iversen
This is everybody's business and it cannot be business as usual. And I'll step right out there. I am Scandinavian white, blue eyed woman with a good education. I have a home, I have friends. I'm very, very privileged and acknowledging that privilege is the first step of really doing something about it. So this is not a numbers game. It is not just about getting women into the C suite or the CEO position or the board. It's also about who do we bring with us in terms of different people in terms of age, sexuality, income, geographical background, educational background. Who do we bring with and how are we going to use that power we get all that we have? It's not about having it. It's about using it for the right thing.
Katja Iversen:
So we need to look age. We need to look at yes, gender. We need to look at ethnicity. We need to look at educational background, we need to look at geographies. And it's our responsibility to bring people with us. I'm so happy that some of the Women Deliver young leaders. So we have a digital university where we train young advocates from across the world now 120. One of them, an amazing young woman called Natasha. She's actually in the big house here. She's in the Congress and she addressed all the leaders. She's 18 years old, she's from Sambia and she's telling the world leaders what they need to do and they should listen. She's not only in the future, she should very much today. And that's the thing I think [inaudible] it does.
Sam:
So you've said that the biggest challenge to the women's empowerment movement today is the need to involve more men. How can we do that? And tell me about some of the good guys that you've been speaking with this?
Katja Iversen
Oh there's great guys and that's also one of the good things about being in Davos. You speak to a lot of the good guys. You speak to some of those who don't know yet, but I believe in enlightening. So gender equality is not a woman's problem as I said. It is a win, win, win. And again, getting the evidence on that and there's some tremendous, both researchers and doers who do that. Whether Gary Barker from Promundo or Michael Kaufman from the White Ribbon, the lions back then. But he's also one of the writers on this. They produce evidence both on how does paternity leave really change the game. It is a game changer.Them being home with the kid, both what happens in your brain and your body and your view of the home. It's not suddenly a woman's domain. It's our place.
Katja Iversen
So having men involved, not only mentors, we got to go beyond mentoring. It's supporting and advocating for women but also at home and taking the fair share of that home. The homework and it's as role models for both boys and girls. The kids pick up immediately if you say, "I'll help mom in the kitchen". You have just defined it as her domain. They also see if you describe one of your leaders as a female leader. Would you ever see a male leader. So it's in the language, it's in what we do, it's in what we project.
Katja Iversen
Of course it's also in what they say, but it's more in what they do. Do you as a leader go to your daughter's soccer practice? Do you leave and maybe log on later? Do you show that it's okay. So working with men both in delivering the evidence but also being those role models and supporters and advocates and thinkers and doers is so key. And men win too because let's just be clear, the gender boxes, the gender roles that we have stuffed each other into that says that the woman has to be caring and beautiful and quiet. Men have to be tall and rich and have a good jaw. Most of the men I know, they don't live up to that either.
Sam:
Yeah. It defines them too.
Katja Iversen
Both men and women and no, there's not only two genders, but they are stuffed into roles that are harmful for both, men don't cry. It's kind of, why not?
Sam:
Yeah. Well, thank you. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you and hear about how you're taking this message and advocacy around the world. Thank you.
Katja Iversen
You're welcome. You're welcome. Yes, it is around the world. As we say in Women Deliver, we change the world, we work hard and we have some fun with good partners like yourself when we're doing it.
Sam:
Thank you. Have a great week here.
Sam:
Thanks to Katja Iversen for joining me to discuss her advocacy for gender equality through her work with women deliver and other groups. I'm so inspired by her career and life's work. Thank you for joining us today. The mission of Women On The Move is to help women in their professional and personal lives. Our goal is to introduce you to people with great ideas, inspiring stories, and a passion to make a difference. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe so you won't miss any others. Thank you to our partners at the Female Quotient and Magnet Media for helping us tell these stories. For JPMorgan Chase's Women On The Move, I'm Sam Saperstein.
